இயன்நெறி (தொன்றமிழ்)
IyanNeri (Archaic Tamil, seen in Tholkaappiyam)
இலக்கணம்- Ilakkanam -is a false friend (from "Lakshana" -Sanskrit)
1.
(Cited from : http://www.advaita.org.uk/sanskrit/terms_lm.htm )
(Cited from: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshana)
IyanNeri (Archaic Tamil, seen in Tholkaappiyam)
இலக்கணம்- Ilakkanam -is a false friend (from "Lakshana" -Sanskrit)
1.
| English | ITRANS | Sanskrit | Meaning |
| L | |||
| lakshana | lakShaNa | l][ | pointer; indicating or expressing indirectly; accurate description or definition. |
(Cited from: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshana)
ilakanam is a tamil word
ReplyDeletehttp://valavu.blogspot.in/2011/07/1.html
http://valavu.blogspot.in/2011/07/2.html
http://valavu.blogspot.in/2011/07/3.html
http://valavu.blogspot.in/2011/07/4.html
இலக்கு - இல்அக்கு - Faraway Home, Destination, Target
Deleteஇலக்கணம் - Nearer Destination
இயன்நெறி - Grammar (from THOlKAPPIYAM)
Tamilized Sanskrit for Grammar : Lakshanam - இலக்கணம்.
Most of the derivatives given in ghe links above were childish, and presumed. Tamil is one of the first languages, primitive and not that complicated. There are just 830 some rootwords, covering most of the necessary word meanings, and each root word is mono- or bi-syllables, longer words are formed by fusion of two or three rootwords and/or viguthigal;
Can you please specific on why you are not accepting the explanation. He has given a detailed analysis. I find your explanations childish. He has given how words have deformed and given examples of the deformed words used in the same meaning, in some cases he has also quoted tamils poems which are using these deformed words with the same meaning.
DeleteYes tamil is one of the first language, but by the time ilakanam was written, tamil should have matured. The blog tells that illakanam came from the root word "il" which means to make holes. You are write tamil came from mono and bi-syllables words but what abt the deformation words doesn't get pronounced the same way and that too with the same meaning for over a period of time.
Also you simply cannot say Lakshanam is a sankrit work. First tell the proper root word for that in sanskrit.
And be more specific about why you are not able to accept his word origins on 'illakanam'
Il is home not hole.
ReplyDeleteRemember there are no perfect homonyms in Tamil (except secondary names/ஆகுபெயர்).
Ilakkanam word is not known in Sangam age literature.
Delineating rootwords based on deformation of known words is not a professional method of studying etymology.
I standby my original description.
I have cited the exact word for grammar from Sangam literature.
Lakshanam is a nonTamil northern word obviously as it starts with the letter "L", and no mention of such word before 10th c CE.
Feel free to ask for original meanings of Tamil words.
Yeah it was home.But during olden days homes were mountain caves which seemed liked holes. Thats Y it was given that name.
DeleteIf some word are not present in available literature that doesn't mean that this word is not present in a language. Many of the books of Sangam and Pre-Sangam age would have got lost.
As a guy who is analysing languages, understand one thing words in a language gets developed based on the creativity of the population. A single thing can have many names based on how the people see it(Shape, Colour, Rigidity). So whatever word you said for grammer might be one of the words.
If you don't take deformation of words into consideration then you cannot analyse any language. Example "Ennai" in tamil is a deformatation of "El + Nei", when man saw a liquid like substance that is coming from El, he said it as El-Nei. Which then deformed to Ennai. When he saw similar type of viscous liquid from other things like cocunut as well. He started saying it as "Thengai Ennai". Here if you don't consider the deformation of "El + Nei". you cannot find the root of ennai.
You can standby your research that is your opinion. But do answer my question of what is the root word for 'Lakshanam' in sanskrit. If you cannot say it, kindly don't propogate that 'Lakshanam' is a sanskrit word and from that only 'illakanam' has come.Just bcoz it starts with 'L', it doesn't mean sanskrit.
And also even now you are not able to pin-point what is childish about the article I have given.
For your information :
ReplyDeleteTamil was mature even by 3500 bc in the Indus valley civilization.Though northern Indus scholars and brahminists and Vedic-oriented Indologists and Vedic propagonists are simply ignorant or have psychogenic selective visual agnosia, it is still true that Indus civilization were Tamil in language and culture. We cannot currently date the period of origin of Tamil -going by the pre-urban era archaeological evidences from around Mehrgarh the Indus Tamil should go well beyond 12000 bc, ie 14000 yrs ago.
1. Have yu heard abt பகுபதம்? எள்+நெய் -எண்ணெய், this is just fusion சேர்த்து எழுதுதல், Not deformation.
ReplyDeleteEnnei is used as aagupeyar for all sorts of oil. The il, eel ..eer.. examples yu gave come under etymological root words and roots never deform or transform for sure. I can humbly substantiate my root words claims, though with childish stubbornness. Welcome.
If yu say திரிதல் in pagupatha uruppilakkanam as deformation, then that does not occur in இல்>ஈல்>ஈ . Ee என்றால் குகை ? Citations?
ReplyDeleteIl(lam) -Eezh(am) -EeRu(Eendra) -born, birth , native, home. This is not derivatives or transformation. These three words are simultaneous parallel roots,
Proof to show that "EE" means "cave"
Deletehttp://manamaduraipost.blogspot.in/2013/07/blog-post_7697.html
Archaic Tamil is a perfect language. There's only one meaning for each root word. All other meanings if any are later attributes or aagupeyar. Original Tamil root words are mathematically placed and aligned, one can deduce related synonyms and antonyms (thesaurus) simply by math calculations. That is the beauty of Tamil, and hence it is the most perfect and primordial language.
DeleteEe, Eey, Eel all may look similar but are 3 diff root words. Ee is to give, Eey is Lord, Eel is nature. The CAve meaning use may be a later aagupeyar, so Ee cannot be concerned as an individual root word for the CAve meaning..
While EeRu denotes Birth, EeRRu(eetru) denotes the End. Yes, true root words among themselves, automatically and naturally denote corresponding antonyms and synonyms. That is the beauty of placed domain roots, that is etymology
ReplyDeleteYour derivatives and deformations you propose in the links -
ReplyDeleteXஇல்>ஈல்>ஈ
Xஇல்>இர்>இரு
√இடம்
> இருத்தல் வினை
Xஇல்>இள்>ஈள்
Xஇள்>ஈள்>ஈட்டு
(√correct one is - இள்>ஈர்>ஈடு)
Xஈல்>ஈர்>ஈ
Xஇல்>ஈல்>ஈலி
Xஈர் ஈந்து ஈச்ச மர
ம்
மன்னிக்கவும் கிட்டத்தட்ட மொத்தமாக அனைத்து deformations-மே தவறாகவே உள்ளன.
ReplyDeletePlease explain me why only இள்>ஈர்>ஈடு is correct others are wrong.
ReplyDeleteI will tell you the exact deformed words
In Eelam, for telling yes they will tell "OM"
When it comes to still north, it gets deforms to "Um" and still north it will become "Aam", so all these are still used in tamil nadu to say yes.
The same will get deformed to "Hah" in hindi.
"இந்த இல், ஈல் சொற்களுக்குள் இவ்வளவு குத்தல், பிரிவு வேலை இருக்கா? துளைப் பொருள் நீண்டு, தமிழில் இவ்வளவு சொற்களா"
As per this statement he has proved sooo many meaning with putting hole and seperation words have come from these words why is this deformation not possible.
may be for ஈ, he has not substanciated much.
Why இல்>இள் is wrong
Really!! root word is lakshya and kshana. So is lakshya a root word. I don't think wikipedia can be referred for Analysis.
ReplyDeleteExplain me hw lakshya and kshana came from its roots. All I am saying is if they don't come from the roots, kindly don't agree that it is their word.
Go check the ane-kanda-vadha, you will come to know hw they will claim anything as theirs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekantavada
You can see hw idiotic explanation they have given for this simple tamil word.
One more example:
ReplyDeleteThe word pūjā (Devanagari: पूजा) comes from Sanskrit, and means reverence, honour, homage, adoration, and worship.[3] Puja rituals are also held by Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs.
But the actual meaning is poo + sei, which is a out and out tamil word.
Poo sei is interesting. That is how longer Tamil wodds formed.
ReplyDeleteAny word starting with b.d.f.g.h.j.l.r.t.x.sh.z.ssh.ksh is not a Tamil word. This is the most fundamental grammatical rule in Tamil. Kindly refer any Tamil grammar book. Lakshan can never be a Tamil word. I am not a Sanskrit pundit but i am confident in my mother tongue Tamil and have some insight into it.
ReplyDeleteIt could be a deformed word... See Pushthakam is a sanskrit word thats what they say. But it was from "Pothagam". which was from tamil.
DeleteWhen you write a single "olai", it is called as "Olai surul", when you start bundling more "Olai suruls", we start putting a very big visible hole(which is "Pothal" in tamil). Bcoz of this "Pothal", it was called "Pothagam" which got deformed to "Pusthakam" in sanskrit.
Lakshanam root words if yu claim wrong pls edit or change them in the two webpages that tell about Lakshanam. Pls also try to give proper root words of Ilalkanam in Tamil. But donot say the horribly unrelated "thulaiththal il eel" deformation stories again. Tamil root words are direct, donot overlap, two syllables at the most.
ReplyDeleteSee tholkappiyam itself says
Delete"Ella sollum porul kurithanavae" - "All words had meanings"
"Mozhi porul karanam vizhipa thondra" - "The meanings for the words would not come directly, you have to research it out"
If the language is formed as you have said, like un-deformed root words and all that. it is not at all necessary for tholkappiyar to make such a statement.
You can search for "Printed Book Salvation" and see if that is accepted to you from this article
http://valavu.blogspot.in/2007/06/3.html
"he has proved sooo many meaning with putting hole and seperation words have come from these words w"
ReplyDeleteThis is called Overgeneralization and that's the reason world linguists mock at as for claiming every thing -words as well as other's culture -as ours. Yu said Sanskrit people claimed many words like Lakshanam as their own, but yu are also doing the same mistake, claiming other language words as our own.
See this may be over generalization, but it looks far far more logical than the way the sanskritarians claim the words to be theirs..For many of the words, he has even given the reference from the "tamil illakiyam" about hw the word was used with the same meaning.
Delete
ReplyDeleteஇல் இள் ஈட்டு
இல் இள் என மாற திரிய முடியாது, Ilakkanappizhai. Read any basic Tamil grammar book.
1.இல் இந்து இத்து இது உயி ஊலி ஈன்று ஈற்று ஈறு ஈழ்
2.இள் இங்கு இக்கு இகு உவி ஊளி ஈண்டு ஈட்டு ஈடு ஈர். All these are equivalent root words. அவ்வளவே.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI am not well versed with tamil grammer. Please let me know what rules prohibit this deformation. I would love you read the specific topic about this in tamill grammer.
Delete71-78:ஈற்று ல்-->ற்,ஃ,ன்,ல எனவே திரியும்;
Delete101-10:ள்-->ட்,ண்,ள எனவே திரியும்;
Idaiyotru eerugal: Pulli mayangiyal: Ezhuththadhigaaram: THOLKAAPPIYAM.
The Root words given in the above post are parallel root words and does not come under this explained Deformation.
Eg. Tolkappiyam 1:71
Deleteலகார இறுதி னகார இயற்றே. ,.லகரம் றகரமாகத் திரிந்து முடியும்,
Thanks I will get back to you on this....
DeleteAnother Basic : Root words never transform or deform. Only the ஈற்று ஒற்று திரியலாம்...like il-indru இல் இன்று,
ReplyDeleteilh-inhdu இள் இண்டு,
"Mozhi porul karanam vizhipa thondra" - "The meanings for the words would not come directly, you have to research it out" as said in Tholkappiyam
DeleteIf the language is formed as you have said, like un-deformed root words and all that. it is not at all necessary for tholkappiyar to make such a statement.
Tolkappiyar was talking about sets of indirect words like aagupeyar etc for which direct meaning could not be attributed or corresponding rootwords were irrelevant .
DeleteAlso the period of the Tolkappiyam was many millennia after the evolution of Tamil into mature language. The work was on all Tamil words aagupeyar, vadamozhi sorkal, rootwords included until that age, not purely on original rootwords alone.
Idam- Iru(ththal) is perfect.
ReplyDeleteNouns were the first formed root words.
இரு இடம் >இண்டு இட்டு இடு உளி ஊரி ஈம்பு ஈப்பு ஈம்பு ஈவ் ஈவிள் all others are simultaneous words deriving from the first two roots.
ஆகும்> ஆம் >ஆம்ஆம், ஆமாம். Yes.
ReplyDeleteHaan from hindi may be a diminution of Aam.
Correct.
When you can accept "Haan" as a deformed word, Why can't lakshya can be a deformed tamil word too...I am not saying everything is tamil, but we should not agree sanskrit words unless they give a proper root word meaning. I have already cited you examples hw "ane-kanda-vadha" and "poosai" being used as sanskrit words. If a tamilan sees it he would laugh at them because these words gives a clear tamil meanining rather than the stupid sanskrit meaning given for this word.
DeleteI have already said, Srilankan tamils use the word "OM" for yes. I donno how you are saying root words cannot deform. See when language was developing before scripts were evolved, language words were as good as the prounouncer. Even today we can see the pronunication of words are different in tamil as we move north wards. Please don't research language with the current written rules alone.
As per your point deformation would occur in borrowed words most often, that is natural course with deformation will be,
ReplyDeleteLakshana-->Lakkana-->Ilakkanam (Tamilized).
Deformation generally has syllables reduced or disfigured not any new addition of complicated consonants like ksh in this case..
No I never said deformation can occur in borrowed words, when the words are deformed, you might get a feeling that it is a foreign word. But when you analyze you can get the proper tamil word.
DeleteThere are deliberate deformations also, Old kannada and telugu were clearly understandable by the tamils. It is suspected that sanskritarians deliberately deformed it so that it is close to sanskirt. They retained the pronounciations of the words through Aryan tounge and thats Y some of the words of kannada and telugu is alien and it seperated into an another language.
For example SravanaBelaKula in karnataka should have been called "Samana Vellai Kulam". Its bcoz of the Aryans 'R' sound Samana became sRamana which was their pronunciation of samana. Vellai becomes Bella in kannada and kulam becomes kula. So much have been done to conceal the identity of the tamils.
You can go through this channel n your free time. It gives a great alternate views on tamils history.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPAOjjErftIB6lBiC0v9XdQ
Yes Sanskritists usually do such Sanskritizing of names, especially God deities names in ancient temples of Tamil Nadu..
Deleteவரவு _ பகுதி விகுதி காண்க
ReplyDelete